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  • It is no secret that my views on corporal punishment go against mainstream thought. Over the past Century, neoliberals have campaigned breathlessly to label corporal punishment, the practice of disciplining your child through physical means as "child abuse" across the board. This new age school of thought has only recently reared its head, as corporal punishment has remained a favored method of child discipline for millennia. Today, these neoliberals will even go as far as to claim that PTSD, something associated with wartime trauma and survivors of school shootings, can result from a child being disciplined. Just last month, admittedly muddled comments I made in favor of the practice were taken out of context and used to disparage me. Today, I'm going to argue the opposite, and elaborate on why I have taken such an ostensibly unpopular position.

    During a debate, I alluded to veterans of foreign wars holding a sole claim to PTSD, and mocked grown adults who were disciplined as children claiming to have PTSD. I stand by these comments to this day. Though I apologized for my comments being taken out of context in addition to the coarse manner in which I expressed myself, I have no regrets in regard to the sentiment. To suggest that well-intended discipline you received from a parent or guardian can somehow be equated to watching your friends die in front of you and being forced to kill to survive is on its face the height of disrespect, and I find it frankly reprehensible.

    Let me be clear however that I do find child abuse disgusting and believe it could result in some form of trauma perhaps in regards to issues of self-confidence. I've personally known victims of abuse who are very close to me, and I would never defend the wanton abuse of anyone, child or otherwise. To illustrate this point, allow me to lay out what I consider discipline and what I consider abuse. The use of a belt, cane, or switch across the back, legs, or buttocks will cause no permanent harm to a child, and should not be considered child abuse. That being said, there is a very fine line between abuse and discipline. Any form of striking a child across the head is unacceptable as it can result in brain damage. Throwing, punching, choking, shoving, and slapping are also unacceptable. Discipline should always be restricted to being below the neck area. While there is a fine line, abuse to me is quite apparent, and is something I would never condone.

    It is also my belief that any teenager should be excluded from any form of physical discipline. By that age, it turns from discipline to assault, and there are many more effective manners of enacting discipline such as by retracting phone, car, or computer privileges. In the same way that adult prisoners should not be beaten by cops and prison guards, discipline evolves with age.

    In closing, I would like to share another great defense of corporal punishment from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/18/opinion/navarrette-spanking-kids/index.html. I was personally very rarely subjected to corporal punishment as a child, but I simply cannot abide by this modern over sensitivity. It is laughable that the same folks who will condemn corporal punishment will also defend homeschooling to their dying breath. While I will never have children of my own, I understand that actions have consequences, and refuse to neuter the right of parents to rear their children into well-adjusted members of society.

    Dios te bendiga,

    AllianceScoutAiothai (talk) 05:04, July 8, 2019 (UTC)

    CorporalPunishment
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    • Caning. Is. Child. Abuse.

      change my mind.

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    • “iN dEfEnSe oF cHiLd aBuSe”

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    • https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/great-kids-great-parents/201404/why-physical-punishment-does-not-work

      https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking

      https://www.mother.ly/news/why-corporal-punishment-doesnt-work-according-to-science

      'In defence of a debunked practice that doesn't actually work, it actually is well-intended discipline that somehow actually works despite scholars and researchers finding that it doesn't.'

      FTFY. Don't blame 'neoliberals' trying to delegitimise what is in itself a flawed, abusive technique. Abandon the damn technique.

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    • wtf

      Child abuse is bad, that's it. There was no need for this. (And because you never do it for god's sake, please please read what others have said)

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    • Ben10fan3 wrote:
      wtf

      Child abuse is bad, that's it. There was no need for this. (And because you never do it for god's sake, please please read what others have said)

      Me: Gives my opinion.

      Discord: Memes me and calls me a childbeater (beyond despicable).

      Me: Clairifies my position.

      Discord: *TRIGGERED*

      I was willing to let the whole thing go, but apparently certain users did not share the same sentiment. All I'm doing is taking the opportunity to clarify my position.

      And no, just because I'm not responding right now doesn't mean I'm ignoring the other posts; I will respond in due time.

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    • "I was willing to let the whole thing go, but apparently certain users did not share the same sentiment. All I'm doing is taking the opportunity to clarify my position."

      All you're doing is reinstating your position as a guy with fucked up views.

      "And no, just because I'm not responding right now doesn't mean I'm ignoring the other posts; I will respond in due time."


      Here's the thing, you always do this. It annoys the fuck out of me. Respond to them when you get them, don't leave them to the side. For example, Kuro gives good sources and good points and you usually ignore them for your shitty outdated CNN one. (And yes child beating is bad, get over it) You should honestly respond to Derp and Spacey too. Man up and respond to them.

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    • Derpmaster21 wrote:
      Caning. Is. Child. Abuse.

      change my mind.

      I doubt I can, but I will say this: I only support use of a SMALL cane across the regions of the body I desribed. Beating your child with Passion of the Christ strength (enough to draw blood) is also unacceptable.

      Doing these one at a time, because I can only quoute one user per post.

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    • AnimeNerd2017 wrote:
      https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/great-kids-great-parents/201404/why-physical-punishment-does-not-work

      https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking

      https://www.mother.ly/news/why-corporal-punishment-doesnt-work-according-to-science

      'In defence of a debunked practice that doesn't actually work, it actually is well-intended discipline that somehow actually works despite scholars and researchers finding that it doesn't.'

      FTFY. Don't blame 'neoliberals' trying to delegitimise what is in itself a flawed, abusive technique. Abandon the damn technique.

      With all due respect Kuro, do you understand the hypocrisy of deriding my 2014 source as outdated when you cite an article from 2002?

      I can hide behind articles too. Whi.e some "scientists" attempt to debunk corporal punishment, others have said their claims are overblown. In fact, many have claimed these studies were bogus: "“Only five research studies have restricted their definition of spanking to open-handed swats on the bottom, [and] none of them found any harmful effects of spanking,” Robert Larzelere, Ph.D., a parenting professor and researcher at Oklahoma State University who has authored numerous papers about discipline and spanking since the 1980s, told Fatherly. “And four studies found it to be tied for first place as the most effective way to enforce cooperation with timeout in defiant 2- to 6-year-olds.”"

      https://www.fatherly.com/parenting/meet-scientists-havent-given-spanking/

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    • Ben10fan3 wrote:
      "I was willing to let the whole thing go, but apparently certain users did not share the same sentiment. All I'm doing is taking the opportunity to clarify my position."

      All you're doing is reinstating your position as a guy with fucked up views.

      "And no, just because I'm not responding right now doesn't mean I'm ignoring the other posts; I will respond in due time."


      Here's the thing, you always do this. It annoys the fuck out of me. Respond to them when you get them, don't leave them to the side. For example, Kuro gives good sources and good points and you usually ignore them for your shitty outdated CNN one. (And yes child beating is bad, get over it) You should honestly respond to Derp and Spacey too. Man up and respond to them.

      I had to sleep for finals, but was always planning to respond. Are you happy?

      Beta, I have been nothing but respectful this entire debate. As I said on Discord, my divergence from you, Kuro, and others is nothing personal. You on the other hand attempt to deligitimize me and my arguments in a hyperbolic, and an ad hominem manner. I could say your position on abortion is "fucked up", I could say your position on fatshaming is "fucked up", I could say your position on homeschooling is "fucked up". Do I? No, we have our disagreements, but at the end of the day I respect you enough as a person to agree to disagree when our debates are over. I don't want to argue with you or anyone else, I'm frankly sick of all the controversy and name-calling that has dominated the wiki for MONTHS now. I'm sick of being lied about on Discord, and I'm sick of people describing me with reprehensible labels. I'm trying to be the adult here: the ball is in the other court now.

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    • You want to go Channel 44 to Channel 45, man? I never said your source was outdated, Beta did. But if we're going sources, I'll just use your own - read it, man. It doesn't support spanking, it just says the effects might be somewhat overblown.

      '...Still, most psychologists are concerned about spanking, which has been shown to increase risk of anxiety, depression, and aggression later in life, says Laura Markham, Ph.D., a clinical psychologist and author. Besides, she says spanking doesn’t work. “Not only does it cause pain and frighten kids, it interferes with their ability to internalize the parent’s message,” Markham says.

      “When you hit them, they’re not thinking about what you want them to do, they’re just thinking, ‘This person 10 times my size who’s supposed to be protecting me is now hitting me.’”'

      'The reality is that many parents hit kids when they’re frustrated, not when they’re attempting to deliver a calm, unemotional disciplinary message, she says. And explaining to them later why you hit them, as authoritative parenting guidelines suggest, won’t erase the trauma of the experience. “If a man hits his wife,” she says. “I don’t think explaining later why he did it is going to make her feel any better.”

      What’s more, spanking puts kids in the “fight, flight, or freeze” stress-response mode, she says, which means the learning centers in their brains shut down and they’re not getting the lesson the parent is trying to teach them. In one study of 1,400 adults, in fact, researchers reported that brain scans of kids who were spanked once a month revealed increases in the size of the amygdala, which is considered the brain’s “alarm center.” A more active “alarm” in the brain might help explain why spanked kids show more aggression later: “You might react more quickly with aggression if you were worried about your safety,” Markham speculates. In addition, the study showed reductions in the areas of the brain responsible for empathy, self-regulation, and ability to pay attention.'

      And while your source says that the studies might be overblown or partly unrepresentative, it does not overall prove that corporal punishment is not harmful. In fact, your final damn conclusion reads:

      'Markham nonetheless maintains that spanking is ineffective. “Once you’re punitive, kids stop thinking you’re on their side,” she says. “They want to feel that you’re their backup and here to help them.”'

      If you hear me sounding a bit on the 'getting angry' side, that's because I am. Here's more:

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2719514/

      'The word discipline means to impart knowledge and skill – to teach. However, it is often equated with punishment and control. There is a great deal of controversy about the appropriate ways to discipline children, and parents are often confused about effective ways to set limits and instill self-control in their child.

      In medical and secular literature, there is great diversity of opinion about the short-term and long-term effects of various disciplinary methods, especially the use of disciplinary spanking. This statement reviews the issues concerning childhood discipline and offers practical guidelines for physicians to use in counselling parents about effective discipline.

      The Canadian Paediatric Society recommends that physicians take an anticipatory approach to discipline, including asking questions about techniques used in the home. Physicians should actively counsel parents about discipline and should strongly discourage the use of spanking.'

      https://www.verywellfamily.com/is-spanking-children-a-good-way-to-discipline-1094756

      'Spanking a child can create even more problems than it cures. Here are a few reasons you may want to rethink spanking your child:

      • Spanking doesn’t teach kids how to behave appropriately. A child who gets spanked for arguing with his brother won't learn how to get along better in the future. Effective discipline should teach new skills.
      • Spanking models aggression. Children do what parents do, more than what they say. So if you spank your child for hitting his brother, you'll send a confusing message.
      • Children who are spanked often feel shame. They may think, "I'm bad," and may struggle with self-esteem issues. Children who experience shame aren't motivated to improve their behavior.
      • Spanking shifts a child's focus from their behavior to their parent's behavior. They may spend their time focusing on how they are angry at their parent rather than on what they could do better next time. Kids then begin to make decisions based on thinking “What can I do that won’t get me a spanking” versus “What’s the best choice I can make right now.”
      • Spanking loses effectiveness over time. Sometimes kids decide the misbehavior is “worth it.” A more effective discipline strategy, such as taking away electronics for 24 hours, can be much more effective in motivating kids to behave.'

      This is the kind of shit I expect to deal with while running my section in the Military Band, for Christ's sake. I've got my fair share of people who I think need discipline. We have a LOT of them in the Band. We're not caning them, we're reprimanding them and guiding them. Is it a slow process? Damn well yes it is. Is it effective? Yup.

      I wanted to say something about your remarks to Beta, but I don't think I will. There's no real point in discussing that part because honestly speaking nothing will change.

      See ya another time, jeez. I'll talk on Discord if you so want, full privacy guaranteed.

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    • it i-is no secwet that my v-views o-on cowpowaw punishment go against mainstweam thought xD over the p-past centuwy ☆:・゚ n-neowibewaws h-have campaigned bweathwesswy to wabew cowpowaw punishment uguu.., the pwactice of discipwining y-youw chiwd thwough physicaw means as "chiwd abuse" acwoss t-the boawd ☆:・゚ this new age schoow of thought has o-onwy wecentwy weawed its head, as cowpowaw punishment has wemained a favowed method of chiwd discipwine fow miwwennia. today, these n-neowibewaws will even go as faw as to c-cwaim that p-ptsd〜☆ s-something associated with wawtime t-twauma and s-suwvivows of s-schoow shootings〜☆ can wesuwt f-fwom a chiwd being discipwined. just wast month :・゚✧:・゚✧ admittedwy muddwed comments i made in favow of the p-pwactice were taken out of c-context and used to d-dispawage me. today, i'm going to a-awgue the opposite.., and ewabowate on why i have taken such an ostensibwy unpopuwaw position.

      duwing a debateO.o i a-awwuded to vetewans of foweign waws howding a sole cwaim to ptsd ☆:・゚ a

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    • Ben10fan3 wrote:
      it i-is no secwet that my v-views o-on cowpowaw punishment go against mainstweam thought xD over the p-past centuwy ☆:・゚ n-neowibewaws h-have campaigned bweathwesswy to wabew cowpowaw punishment uguu.., the pwactice of discipwining y-youw chiwd thwough physicaw means as "chiwd abuse" acwoss t-the boawd ☆:・゚ this new age schoow of thought has o-onwy wecentwy weawed its head, as cowpowaw punishment has wemained a favowed method of chiwd discipwine fow miwwennia. today, these n-neowibewaws will even go as faw as to c-cwaim that p-ptsd〜☆ s-something associated with wawtime t-twauma and s-suwvivows of s-schoow shootings〜☆ can wesuwt f-fwom a chiwd being discipwined. just wast month :・゚✧:・゚✧ admittedwy muddwed comments i made in favow of the p-pwactice were taken out of c-context and used to d-dispawage me. today, i'm going to a-awgue the opposite.., and ewabowate on why i have taken such an ostensibwy unpopuwaw position.

      duwing a debateO.o i a-awwuded to vetewans of foweign waws howding a sole cwaim to ptsd ☆:・゚ a

      As I said, the ball is in your court. I know you're ##, but I expect better from my own generation, and especially someone I considered wise beyond their years. Find me when you're ready to be an adult.

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    • Damn, why so salty? You mad that Kuro acutally made some good and thought out points?

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    • Ben10fan3 wrote:
      Damn, why so salty? You mad that Kuro acutally made some good and thought out points?

      Nah, I'm just not interested in debating folks who resort to personal attacks such immature behavior. I tried to have a civil, adult debate, but clearly that was never going to happen.

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    • And honestly, I looked up to you. But, dude when you say shit like the Irish are bad people, or we should abuse our children, you got to expect to get slack. Or when you make Utah fucking Blue, or make an unfunny joke about me not being able to do something when you do Blue Louisiana in what, 2020? You're heavily delusional, Trump has a good chance of winning in 2020. Everyone though Hillary would win in 2016, they were wrong. Now the common idea is that Trump won't win 2020. He could, but he could also not. And when you make fun of people who believe that he could win a second term, you don't seem wise. Find me when you're ready to be an actual adult.

      "I tried to have a civil, adult debate, but clearly that was never going to happen." "Over the past Century, neoliberals have campaigned breathlessly to label corporal punishment"

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    • "As I said, the ball is in your court. I know you're ##, but I expect better from my own generation, and especially someone I considered wise beyond their years. Find me when you're ready to be an adult."

      When have I've ever said that? Even if I said I was, is that your information to share? Hell no. Given you're a Millennial, ## year olds would not be in your generation. You're being so fucking condescending it hurts my brain.

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    • Ah, yes, really? Can we just have a good debate that doesn’t rely on insults, please? Because I’ve got a few gripes with you, Aiothai, a lot of which involves you grouping me in with Beta’s statements and then oversimplifying what I said. But we could just let that pass if you actually come up with something that isn’t just you raging at Beta, the only person you bothered to respond to for the most part.

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    • @Beta Not sure how any of that is relevant to the discussion at hand, but I will say this: I never said the Irish were bad people. I said their government and elements of their culture (IRA, Irish Mob, Catholic fundamentalism, white supramacy, nativist/transphobic intolerance in modern Ireland ) have embraced fascism in the past. Do I hate all Irish people? Jesus no. Some of my closest friends have Irish heritage. Hell, I have some Irish heritage. All I've done is state facts and point out that their society has a long road to improvement. Why are people allowed to critique British imperalism, slam Saudi Arabian draconian practices, and accuse Turkey of fascism and ethnocentrism but I'm not allowed to do the same in regards to Ireland? Even in the heat of the moment last month, I never said I hated Irish people or Ireland. I've even apologized for what I did say being taken out of context. If you can't accept that, I don't know what to tell ya.

      Gen Z is 1996-2006. We're not "millenials".

      And yes, to answer your question, I have popped in and out of Discord tonight, which is one of the reasons I'm done going back and forth with you: you're clearly in an emotional state right now, and have no interest in actual debate. When you can stop hoping I "burn in hell" we can talk. I mean that genuinely, I want to work out a permenant agreement with you and the others, but not now when tensions are so high. As I said, I'm not going anywhere. I plan to be active for the remainder of 2019, so I sincerely hope we can figure this out.

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    • Stop ignoring Kuro.

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    • Ben10fan3 wrote:
      Stop ignoring Kuro.

      Not ignoring him, he posted while I was typing.

      @Kuro I've responded to you. Name one time I've insulted any of you in this thread.

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    • "Not sure how any of that is relevant to the discussion at hand, but I will say this: I never said the Irish were bad people. I said their government and elements of their culture (IRA, Irish Mob, Catholic fundamentalism, white supramacy, nativist/transphobic intolerance in modern Ireland ) have embraced fascism in the past. " Yes you did, you legit said so. But then said they could be good if they tried. THe same shit can be applied to hispanic people regarding nativism/transphobia and catholic fundamentalism. Northern Ireland has literally passed laws supporting trans people too so lmao. And again, stop ignoring Kuro.

      "you're clearly in an emotional state right now, and have no interest in actual debate. " Btw this is condescending.

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    • "Why are people allowed to critique British imperalism, slam Saudi Arabian draconian practices, and accuse Turkey of fascism and ethnocentrism but I'm not allowed to do the same in regards to Ireland?" Because all of these are true and you're overexaggerating the Irish in some instances. You watch too much TYT smh. News Flash! The Armenian Genocide did happen!

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    • Ben10fan3 wrote:
      "Why are people allowed to critique British imperalism, slam Saudi Arabian draconian practices, and accuse Turkey of fascism and ethnocentrism but I'm not allowed to do the same in regards to Ireland?" Because all of these are true and you're overexaggerating the Irish in some instances. You watch too much TYT smh. News Flash! The Armenian Genocide did happen!

      In that case, why can't I point out Ireland's fascist history which is also true?

      I literally just said Turkey is guilty of fascism and ethnocentrism.

        Loading editor
    • Because it never amounted to much. It was awful yea, but they didn't really do anything. All of these things, the UK, Saudi Arabia, Turkey. They still have some effect on the day: fucking Africa over, Yemeni genocide/Kashoggi/everything, and Armenian Genocide Denial. Ireland's fascist phase didn't really do anything.

      Stop cherrypicking what you respond to. Respond to everything or respond to nothing. Especially, respond to Kuro if anyone at all. 

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    • Lolmoment
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    • Ben10fan3 wrote:
      Because it never amounted to much. It was awful yea, but they didn't really do anything. All of these things, the UK, Saudi Arabia, Turkey. They still have some effect on the day: fucking Africa over, Yemeni genocide/Kashoggi/everything, and Armenian Genocide Denial. Ireland's fascist phase didn't really do anything.

      Stop cherrypicking what you respond to. Respond to everything or respond to nothing. Especially, respond to Kuro if anyone at all. 

      I responded to Kuro​​​​​​​. What more do you want?

        Loading editor
    • Also, I'm not allowed to point out Irish fascism because "it's not as bad" as other countries?

        Loading editor
    • AllianceScoutAiothai wrote:
      Ben10fan3 wrote:
      Because it never amounted to much. It was awful yea, but they didn't really do anything. All of these things, the UK, Saudi Arabia, Turkey. They still have some effect on the day: fucking Africa over, Yemeni genocide/Kashoggi/everything, and Armenian Genocide Denial. Ireland's fascist phase didn't really do anything.

      Stop cherrypicking what you respond to. Respond to everything or respond to nothing. Especially, respond to Kuro if anyone at all. 

      I responded to Kuro​​​​​​​. What more do you want?

      Lmao, you responded to me... This is what Kuro has said...

      "

      You want to go Channel 44 to Channel 45, man? I never said your source was outdated, Beta did. But if we're going sources, I'll just use your own - read it, man. It doesn't support spanking, it just says the effects might be somewhat overblown.

      '...Still, most psychologists are concerned about spanking, which has been shown toincrease risk of anxiety, depression, and aggression later in life, says Laura Markham, Ph.D., a clinical psychologist and author. Besides, she says spanking doesn’t work. “Not only does it cause pain and frighten kids, it interferes with their ability to internalize the parent’s message,” Markham says.

      “When you hit them, they’re not thinking about what you want them to do, they’re just thinking, ‘This person 10 times my size who’s supposed to be protecting me is now hitting me.’”'

      'The reality is that many parents hit kids when they’re frustrated, not when they’re attempting to deliver a calm, unemotional disciplinary message, she says. And explaining to them later why you hit them, as authoritative parenting guidelines suggest, won’t erase the trauma of the experience. “If a man hits his wife,” she says. “I don’t think explaining later why he did it is going to make her feel any better.”

      What’s more, spanking puts kids in the “fight, flight, or freeze” stress-response mode, she says, which means the learning centers in their brains shut down and they’re not getting the lesson the parent is trying to teach them. In one study of 1,400 adults, in fact, researchers reported that brain scans of kids who were spanked once a month revealed increases in the size of the amygdala, which is considered the brain’s “alarm center.” A more active “alarm” in the brain might help explain why spanked kids show more aggression later: “You might react more quickly with aggression if you were worried about your safety,” Markham speculates. In addition, the study showed reductions in the areas of the brain responsible for empathy, self-regulation, and ability to pay attention.'

      And while your source says that the studies might be overblown or partly unrepresentative, it does not overall prove that corporal punishment is not harmful. In fact, your final damn conclusion reads:

      'Markham nonetheless maintains that spanking is ineffective. “Once you’re punitive, kids stop thinking you’re on their side,” she says. “They want to feel that you’re their backup and here to help them.”'

      If you hear me sounding a bit on the 'getting angry' side, that's because I am. Here's more:

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2719514/

      'The word discipline means to impart knowledge and skill – to teach. However, it is often equated with punishment and control. There is a great deal of controversy about the appropriate ways to discipline children, and parents are often confused about effective ways to set limits and instill self-control in their child.

      In medical and secular literature, there is great diversity of opinion about the short-term and long-term effects of various disciplinary methods, especially the use of disciplinary spanking. This statement reviews the issues concerning childhood discipline and offers practical guidelines for physicians to use in counselling parents about effective discipline.

      The Canadian Paediatric Society recommends that physicians take an anticipatory approach to discipline, including asking questions about techniques used in the home. Physicians should actively counsel parents about discipline and should strongly discourage the use of spanking.'

      https://www.verywellfamily.com/is-spanking-children-a-good-way-to-discipline-1094756

      'Spanking a child can create even more problems than it cures. Here are a few reasons you may want to rethink spanking your child:

      • Spanking doesn’t teach kids how to behave appropriately. A child who gets spanked for arguing with his brother won't learn how to get along better in the future. Effective discipline should teach new skills.
      • Spanking models aggression. Children do what parents do, more than what they say. So if you spank your child for hitting his brother, you'll send a confusing message.
      • Children who are spanked often feel shame. They may think, "I'm bad," and may struggle with self-esteem issues. Children who experience shame aren't motivated to improve their behavior.
      • Spanking shifts a child's focus from their behavior to their parent's behavior. They may spend their time focusing on how they are angry at their parent rather than on what they could do better next time. Kids then begin to make decisions based on thinking “What can I do that won’t get me a spanking” versus “What’s the best choice I can make right now.”
      • Spanking loses effectiveness over time. Sometimes kids decide the misbehavior is “worth it.” A more effective discipline strategy, such as taking away electronics for 24 hours, can be much more effective in motivating kids to behave.'

      This is the kind of shit I expect to deal with while running my section in the Military Band, for Christ's sake. I've got my fair share of people who I think need discipline. We have a LOT of them in the Band. We're not caning them, we're reprimanding them and guiding them. Is it a slow process? Damn well yes it is. Is it effective? Yup.

      I wanted to say something about your remarks to Beta, but I don't think I will. There's no real point in discussing that part because honestly speaking nothing will change.

      See ya another time, jeez. I'll talk on Discord if you so want, full privacy guaranteed."



      "Ah, yes, really? Can we just have a good debate that doesn’t rely on insults, please? Because I’ve got a few gripes with you, Aiothai, a lot of which involves you grouping me in with Beta’s statements and then oversimplifying what I said. But we could just let that pass if you actually come up with something that isn’t just you raging at Beta, the only personyou bothered to respond to for the most part."

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    • AllianceScoutAiothai wrote:
      Also, I'm not allowed to point out Irish fascism because "it's not as bad" as other countries?

      Nah you are, still not a good reason to demonize them.

      #MakeAiothaiRespondToKuro2019

        Loading editor
    • AnimeNerd2017 wrote:
      You want to go Channel 44 to Channel 45, man? I never said your source was outdated, Beta did. But if we're going sources, I'll just use your own - read it, man. It doesn't support spanking, it just says the effects might be somewhat overblown.

      '...Still, most psychologists are concerned about spanking, which has been shown to increase risk of anxiety, depression, and aggression later in life, says Laura Markham, Ph.D., a clinical psychologist and author. Besides, she says spanking doesn’t work. “Not only does it cause pain and frighten kids, it interferes with their ability to internalize the parent’s message,” Markham says.

      “When you hit them, they’re not thinking about what you want them to do, they’re just thinking, ‘This person 10 times my size who’s supposed to be protecting me is now hitting me.’”'

      'The reality is that many parents hit kids when they’re frustrated, not when they’re attempting to deliver a calm, unemotional disciplinary message, she says. And explaining to them later why you hit them, as authoritative parenting guidelines suggest, won’t erase the trauma of the experience. “If a man hits his wife,” she says. “I don’t think explaining later why he did it is going to make her feel any better.”

      What’s more, spanking puts kids in the “fight, flight, or freeze” stress-response mode, she says, which means the learning centers in their brains shut down and they’re not getting the lesson the parent is trying to teach them. In one study of 1,400 adults, in fact, researchers reported that brain scans of kids who were spanked once a month revealed increases in the size of the amygdala, which is considered the brain’s “alarm center.” A more active “alarm” in the brain might help explain why spanked kids show more aggression later: “You might react more quickly with aggression if you were worried about your safety,” Markham speculates. In addition, the study showed reductions in the areas of the brain responsible for empathy, self-regulation, and ability to pay attention.'

      And while your source says that the studies might be overblown or partly unrepresentative, it does not overall prove that corporal punishment is not harmful. In fact, your final damn conclusion reads:

      'Markham nonetheless maintains that spanking is ineffective. “Once you’re punitive, kids stop thinking you’re on their side,” she says. “They want to feel that you’re their backup and here to help them.”'

      If you hear me sounding a bit on the 'getting angry' side, that's because I am. Here's more:

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2719514/

      'The word discipline means to impart knowledge and skill – to teach. However, it is often equated with punishment and control. There is a great deal of controversy about the appropriate ways to discipline children, and parents are often confused about effective ways to set limits and instill self-control in their child.

      In medical and secular literature, there is great diversity of opinion about the short-term and long-term effects of various disciplinary methods, especially the use of disciplinary spanking. This statement reviews the issues concerning childhood discipline and offers practical guidelines for physicians to use in counselling parents about effective discipline.

      The Canadian Paediatric Society recommends that physicians take an anticipatory approach to discipline, including asking questions about techniques used in the home. Physicians should actively counsel parents about discipline and should strongly discourage the use of spanking.'

      https://www.verywellfamily.com/is-spanking-children-a-good-way-to-discipline-1094756

      'Spanking a child can create even more problems than it cures. Here are a few reasons you may want to rethink spanking your child:

      • Spanking doesn’t teach kids how to behave appropriately. A child who gets spanked for arguing with his brother won't learn how to get along better in the future. Effective discipline should teach new skills.
      • Spanking models aggression. Children do what parents do, more than what they say. So if you spank your child for hitting his brother, you'll send a confusing message.
      • Children who are spanked often feel shame. They may think, "I'm bad," and may struggle with self-esteem issues. Children who experience shame aren't motivated to improve their behavior.
      • Spanking shifts a child's focus from their behavior to their parent's behavior. They may spend their time focusing on how they are angry at their parent rather than on what they could do better next time. Kids then begin to make decisions based on thinking “What can I do that won’t get me a spanking” versus “What’s the best choice I can make right now.”
      • Spanking loses effectiveness over time. Sometimes kids decide the misbehavior is “worth it.” A more effective discipline strategy, such as taking away electronics for 24 hours, can be much more effective in motivating kids to behave.'

      This is the kind of shit I expect to deal with while running my section in the Military Band, for Christ's sake. I've got my fair share of people who I think need discipline. We have a LOT of them in the Band. We're not caning them, we're reprimanding them and guiding them. Is it a slow process? Damn well yes it is. Is it effective? Yup.

      I wanted to say something about your remarks to Beta, but I don't think I will. There's no real point in discussing that part because honestly speaking nothing will change.

      See ya another time, jeez. I'll talk on Discord if you so want, full privacy guaranteed.

      My source also says: "That study, however, looked at the effects of “harsh corporal punishment,” which the authors noted meant that kids were struck, on average, once a month “frequently with objects.” Harsh and frequent spanking isn’t what Larzelere is suggesting. That most spanking research lumps abusive behavior along with measured, open-handed spanks is is one problem that he and Ferguson have with most spanking studies. Data collected in these studies cut across too broad a swath, they argue, so that parents who hit their kids with belts or switches and leave bruises or cuts, for example, are lumped in with parents who use the unemotional, non-abusive spanking that they suspect will benefit some kids."

      As for your mental illness point, I can't speak to those specific studies, but will respond with a debunking of one of the major studies done in favor of spanking-related PTSD. "Despite the Yahoo headline, and many others like it, the study, published in Pediatrics in early July, does not actually link spanking to mental illness. In fact, the study has nothing to do with spanking at all. Canadian researchers asked 34,000 adults how often they had been pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped, or hit by their parents or other adults when they were children. The authors explain that they were trying to assess the long-term effects of regular harsh physical punishment, which, they write, “some may consider more severe than ‘customary’ physical punishment (i.e., spanking).” Ultimately, the researchers reported that adults who have mental problems are more likely to say they were pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped, or hit by their parents than healthy adults are."[1] I already said the bolded practices are unacceptable.

      To your military band argument, I also said physical discipline against a teenager is wrong. 

      I hate child abuse. Not sure how many more times I have to say that, but it's true. As many studies as you can find backing up a supposed PTSD-spanking connection narrative, I can find articles proving they're either flat out lies or exagerrations. I'm happy to debate you Kuro, but a debate mandates that we both put aside blind emotion, and reject profanity-laced personal assaults. Again, I sincerely want to end this respectfully and in a mature manner.

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